41K SC upload fee???

[moorsc0de]

@Mad_Max The 0 transaction is the Sia Fund transaction that goes to them... your overthinking that.

[Mad_Max]

@moorsc0de What? What they have to do with this?
SeaFund fees paid only by renters, not by hosts. And AFAIK there are not separate txs but fees included in file contract unlock process. Just amount of coins going out from contract after unlock fewer compared to amount of coins going in. All the difference is claimed by sea-fund owners later.
Similar to bitcoin transaction fees, where is not any tx from users to miners, but miners claim difference between sum of all inputs and all outputs in all transaction in a block. But in Sia we just have 2 types of fees. One still goes to miners (tx fees) and other to siafund owners (contract fees)

And as for these "zero" transactions - you can choose a hash of one of these and check it in the blockchain explorer to make sure that all the addresses involved in it are in your wallet. (to list all your addresses "wallet addresses" command in terminal or "siac wallet addresses" in command line)

Wallet constantly creates them. I manually generated only 2 addresses, and now my wallet contains several dozen already, through which these automatic exchange/split transactions passed. Number equals to my host contact count (real count, bot buggy counter in current client)

[desgrippes]

@Mad_Max I deleted the file right after seeing the 41k go walkies, I emptied my wallet right away after and don't intend to restart the client for a long time, will that be enough not to renew?

@moorsc0de BTW I was/am running 1.2.2 but the original contract would have been made under 1.2.1 but the xfer happened with latest version.

[moorsc0de]

@desgrippes Sounds buggy

[moorsc0de]

@Mad_Max Do you have a source for indicating ONLY renters pay for Sia Fund 3.9% fee?

Its my knowledge - Every transaction - in the UI (except deposits to the UI/wallet have a 0 dust fee transaction. These 0 SC transactions are the 3.9% of the amount being transacted that goes to Sia Fund.
When you go to the Sia Explorer it will show you the dust transaction which is this 3.9% which is usually very minimal, but it comes out of every transaction- most users do not even know it.
The wallet always creates multiple addresses... the wordis all of them will work.. but concerning specifically the 0 SC seen.. that is a 3.9% fee. This could get divided to the miners (not sure), but
there would be no reason to show mining fees in a wallet (and would be a first I have ever seen of any wallet). These 0 SC are also going to different wallt addresses seen in the UI and in Sia Explorer.

My post from reddit 20 day ago and was never contested there:
Sia is a product of Nebulous Incorporated. Nebulous is a for-profit company, and Sia is intended to be- come a primary source of income for the company. Nebulous intends to generate revenue from Sia in a manner proportional to the value added by Sia, as determined by the value of the contracts set up between clients and hosts. This is accomplished by imposing a fee on all contracts. When a contract is created, 3.9% of the contract fund is removed and distributed to the holders of siafunds . Nebulous Inc. will initially hold approx. 88% of the siafunds, and rest 12% is held by the early crowd-fund backers.

Source: http://www.cryptocoinscorner.com/2017/06/crypto-currency-siacoin-sia.html

[Mad_Max]

@desgrippes said in 41K SC upload fee???:

@Mad_Max I deleted the file right after seeing the 41k go walkies, I emptied my wallet right away after and don't intend to restart the client for a long time, will that be enough not to renew?

Yes, this should be enough.
In order to renew contract client needs to use your private keys. So if you do not start client until old contracts expire OR you start client but wallet remain locked all the time - client will not be able to renew contracts. And without renew fund locked in old contracts should return to your wallet after contracts duration ends (12 week from contract signing by default).

Resetting renter allowance to zero should work too. But i am not sure this works properly in current client... So i advice to clear allowance only after contracts expire and coins return back to wallet but before you unlock wallet and send coins away. Don't forget to do this before unlock wallet or client could start making brand new contracts using returned coins.

[Mad_Max]

@moorsc0de

Yes, 3.9% fee apply to all file contracts. But not to regular transactions.
And these fees paid by renter only. Renter pay fees for both sides - own spending plus host collateral.
This mentioned in the Hosting Handbook

How Collateral Affects Score
Collateral actually has two effects. The first is that it improves your score because renters like to see collateral. But the second is that it reduces your score, because renters have to pay a siafund fee on the collateral.

And i also saw this on practice while browsing examples of renter contracts. Here link to table with examples of renter contracts. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KD1tdxc78okXeu4c2z4vWnVr1p9aaaqCXlwfaMmNZ9M/
Pick 1st - 2d3ac4c5c88211a1a4f51f326643bd76651121e0722cc409db582bd9a97e5eb4
Check block explorer: https://explorer.siahub.info/hash/2d3ac4c5c88211a1a4f51f326643bd76651121e0722cc409db582bd9a97e5eb4

There is 1341.29 SC locked in this contract (Payout: 1,341.29 SC).
But only 1288.98 SC will be paid to renter and host after contract finished (Total SC Outputs: 1,288.98 SC )
Difference between this two values is a seafund fee: 1341.29*(1-3.9%) = 1288.97969 SC
But this fee not visible in a wallet. You can see it only in the blockchain. And there is not any fees transaction - just sum(outputs) < sum(inputs)

And now let's check who pay this fees:
Renter sent 343.34 SC to form this contract (https://explorer.siahub.info/hash/49d0b260001dbb0f446b9953107bba612e6750365116a4eb13e2e7896cab4804)
And 59.36 SC already marked as spend in client contract table.
Host sent only 1000 SC as collateral to contract: https://explorer.siahub.info/hash/b348dafcb931b4d916706d3116c8e3277d752cedf3a8643b846684ce925652cf
And 1005 SC is already prepared to return to host - all collateral + contract creation fee (from renter to host) 1000+5=1005 SC.
If renter will never use this contract - host will get 1005 SC back, and renter will get 283.98 SC back.
If renter will use it - host's portion will increase and renter portion will decrease.
So all seafund fees is on a renter side.

As for 0 SC transaction in a wallet - i am sure it is not a fees, but some sort of change operations. I have checked few such transaction in properly working block explorer (https://explorer.siahub.info/ - it is working much better compared to official one!). Here one example of "zero transaction" from one of my wallets: https://explorer.siahub.info/hash/fcdd92f88c783f9ed902d2fa9cd7bea60b37ea15d64a91fcb37798630eb28c26

You can see it actually not a zero at all. 36.65 SC goes from one address (input) to two other addresses in 5.08+31.57 SC proportions. Only one reason why client shows this tx as zero because all 3 addresses are my own and total wallet balance change as result of such transaction = 0. Eg just sending coins to myself. If you send some bitcoins to own address (from the same wallet) bitcoin client will show such transaction as zero too.

[moorsc0de]

@Mad_Max Highly speculative analysis- with no proof.

Despite the Nebulous releaseon how Sia Fund is actually funded... hmmmm

[Mad_Max]

Blockchain itself IS a best proof possible. Actually, this is its main purpose - to be a very reliable proof of various important information.
And links to actual contracts in the blockchain right above.
It just example though - you can pick up any of your own contracts and see the same. I have checked few already.

And there are no any contradictions with what the Nebulous wrote. They said what they are getting 3.9% of total contract funds via siafund.
I am saying the same(but with more details) - they collects 3.9% of total contract sum, but these expenses shifted to the renter side. Host pays 0% fee to sea-fund and renter pays about 10% or more fee - depends on ratio between host prices and host collateral. Bigger collateral = bigger fees from renter to seafund.

This is the reason why setting collateral too high is a bad idea despite the fact that this increases the score and trust of the host. Simultaneously, this significantly increases the renter's costs and reduces the attractiveness of your host.