Concerns about hosting illegal content



  • Opening a new topic since the one from @larsfloe was old : Re: How to avoid illegal content!?

    I think this is one of the biggest concerns this community has to face. I don't have a good solution, but if Sia becomes branded as a CP storage hub - its game over.

    @taek said "if a host does discover that they are storing illegal or objectionable content on their machine". Can you expand on this? In what situation would a host be able to view what someone is storing? I thought it was impossible for a host to see what's on their machine?

    -co


  • Global Moderator

    @co it's my opinion that if a storage network can truly be decentralized there can be no such thing as illegal or legal. The second a host discriminates the project fails and is no better than any corporate host.

    If you're concerned about illegal content you'd be taking a large risk trying to host.

    Make sure you tag me @bryan if you need to me respond.
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    @co I should also add that it's kind of irrelevant any way since only the renter would know if the content was illegal. If the government were to find it they should be able to remove it without bothering the hosts by serving the search warrant to the renter.

    Make sure you tag me @bryan if you need to me respond.
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  • @bryan let's run a quick thought experiment - let's imagine somebody in a faraway jurisdiction puts up a copyrighted movie and let's everybody download it (through the upcoming CDN functionality - that's not possible yet). Copyright holders sees that as a problem, but can't go after the renter, since they don't have offices in that faraway jurisdiction. Instead, they would go against all the hosters, and request that the corresponding chunks be removed from the host, or else a fine needs to be paid, or jailtime...

    Now they (copyright holders) may not succeed, as enough of the 30 copies of the chunk may be outside their jurisdiction, but they can still make the life of everyday hosters like you and me a terrible hell.

    Or they may just not bother and nobody has to be afraid of that situation, since copyright holders & lawyers understand the protocol and realize that they can't win this... but I wouldn't necessarily count on so much common sense in copyright holders & lawyers!

    That said, I'm not too much worried about that scenario, but it will likely hold back some parties from participating in the network, specifically those parties who are worried about compliance, or their reputation...


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    @maol but wouldn't they have to decrypt the chunks to prove wrong doing?

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  • Taek mentioned the ability for a host to remove certain contracts from their storage.

    This would allow hosts to comply with complaints/takedowns/law.

    I am more than certain Nebulous has plans for this. Thee software is still young and features are being added.

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    @xurious ahh contract removal sounds more reasonable to me.

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  • @bryan said in Concerns about hosting illegal content:

    @maol but wouldn't they have to decrypt the chunks to prove wrong doing?

    In my example, the copyright holders would run a modified client to identify who is sharing what, just like in the good old times with Napster, BitTorrent, etc.



  • @maol

    Without the renters "keys", it's impossible to decrypt the data the renter has stored on the network. The data is encrypted as it's uploaded, and then split between multiple hosts.

    Sharing a file with the upcoming .sia method will allow one to see which hosts have parts to the file(s). However it still does not allow visibility of the other files the original renter has uploaded.

    Edit: TL;DR: It's not possible to make a modified client to see who is sharing what.

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  • @xurious

    Sharing a file with the upcoming .sia method will allow one to see which hosts have parts to the file(s)

    This is what I meant. It's enough for the copyright industry to come after hosters, based on the files that they see shared on the network.



  • The current version of the software is unproblematic.

    With the sharing function it is critical.

    1. Someone puts up illigal content (movie)
    2. He posts the links to the content in a puplic forum for illigal software
    3. The legal content owner sees the link and starts to download the content. He logs the ip addresses where the traffic comes from.
    4. Boom, thats it. In Germany that is enough proof so you have to sign a "Unterlassungserklärung" and about 500 to 2500€ in lawyer fees. As you can not know or see the illigal content on your system, all you can do is bring down everything, costing you lots of collateral, because if you are cought again with the same content it gets much much more expensive.

    BUT

    In sia traffic is not free. No one sharing illigal movies or games will be willing to pay for the traffic generated by leechers. (Probably not even for the storage).
    So as long as there will be no business modell like the one-click-hosters, where the downloader is lured into paying for faster downloads (and the uploader gets a share of the earnings), there should be no problem.

    Additionally it would be nice if the hoster can decide if he allows shared contend on his storage.



  • @Kermit

    Your mitigation may thwart the guy uploading the latest movie, but what about the wikileaks like groups that will pay to distribute compromising content, or any other type of dubious data that the renter is happy to fund?

    This is a fascinating thread, and really something that needs consideration (IMHO). Could, say, China block access to the Sia network if they needed to, could a legal ruling in the US enforce a take down of specific hosted content, etc?

    I'm sure the dev's are looking at all this, but it'll be interesting to see how these potential challenges align with the whole decentralized, hands off approach.

    Some way to quickly ID the offending renter and block/delete(?) their hosted content would be one way I guess. It's a people solution, but then even google can't offload everything to the network ;-)



  • @Kermit said in Concerns about hosting illegal content:

    In sia traffic is not free. No one sharing illigal movies or games will be willing to pay for the traffic generated by leechers. (Probably not even for the storage).
    So as long as there will be no business modell like the one-click-hosters, where the downloader is lured into paying for faster downloads (and the uploader gets a share of the earnings), there should be no problem.

    Additionally it would be nice if the hoster can decide if he allows shared contend on his storage.

    If I understand it correctly, using .sia results in the "leecher" paying for the download fee.

    Also you vastly over estimate the cost of bandwidth and storage. While renters get to set their pricing, it's still dirt cheap. Pennies/GB for most renters. The price of storage is $2/TB per month per redundancy. That's insanely cheap. Much cheaper than a seedbox.

    As for allowing shared content? How is the hosting software supposed to determine when it's being shared? What happens if I'm restoring my backup on a new computer with a fresh wallet? I would be considered a separate person, but still need access to the files.

    @ams6699

    This is a fascinating thread, and really something that needs consideration (IMHO).

    It has been considered, for years now.

    Could, say, China block access to the Sia network if they needed to

    Sure, block the traffic, the ports, the ips. The full list of all host nodes are presented clearly in the client.

    could a legal ruling in the US enforce a take down of specific hosted content, etc?

    They could only go after the hosts, not the sia platform.

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